DELPHI — One witness was heard on day eight of the Delphi Murders Trial in Carroll County. Indiana State Police Lieutenant Jerry Holeman took the stand. Holeman is the lead investigator in the case.
PREVIOUSLY: Delphi Murders Trial: Day 7 | Gun Examiner: Bullet found at crime scene had been in Richard Allen's gun
His testimony largely centered around his interrogation of Richard Allen before Allen was arrested and charged with the murders of Abby Williams and Libby German in 2022.
Holeman said before he interviewed Allen, he believed without a doubt the bullet found at the crime scene near the Delphi High Bridge belonged to Allen.
However, during the interview, he says Allen denied any involvement in the murders despite being asked 20 to 25 times.
Holeman shared some of the interview tactics used by police interrogators.
- build rapport
- present evidence
- lie/overreact to the person
- read body language
October 26, 2022: Allen's interrogation
Holeman testified to the details of his interview with Allen at the Lafayette Indiana State Police post two years ago. When that interview occurred, Allen had not been arrested or charged with any crime.
He testified Allen was read his Miranda Rights before he continued with the interview.
According to Holeman, this portion of the interview was not recorded due to technical difficulties.
Round found at the crime scene
Police found a single Winchester .40 caliber Smith & Wesson cartridge at the crime scene between the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German.
Many of Holeman's questions centered around that round and trying to determine how it got there.
Holeman said he believed "without a doubt" it was a round that had been cycled through Allen's gun. He testified he believed that based on the conclusion made by forensic examiners after they looked at and tested Allen's Sig Sauer Model 226 pistol.
Holeman said he worked to build rapport with Allen by talking about their similar military background and guns.
During the interview, Holeman said Allen claimed no one had ever borrowed any of his clothes, car, or .40 caliber handgun.
Allen never explained how a round found at the scene — one believed to have cycled through Allen's gun, could have gotten there.
Allen told police he never carried his gun unless he was fishing or mushroom hunting. He also said he did not have it with him on February 13, 2017, when he was walking on the trails.
Holeman testified Allen said, "There is no way it's my bullet or that it came from my gun."
When Allen was asked how he normally carried a gun, he responded he used a side holster. Allen told Holeman he usually carried his pistol with one round in his chamber.
Testimony revealed Allen continued to deny participating in the murders more than 20 times.
"It's already over."
Earlier in the trial, Holeman testified Allen told him, "It's already over" as police were searching his home while executing a search warrant.
Holeman testified he asked Allen about that comment and why he said it.
Allen replied, "The damage was done. You already interviewed my neighbors and co-workers. They all think I am guilty."
Holeman testified Allen said something to the effect that it (the arrest and murder charges) had ruined his life.
Interview technique of lying
During the questioning of Holeman, the lead investigator testified police often will lie during interrogation interviews to elicit a reaction from a possible suspect.
In his testimony, Holeman shared that he had told Allen there had been witnesses who said they had seen Allen on the bridge.
He also told Allen that an expert had determined that Allen was the man known as "Bridge Guy" in the video taken by Libby German on February 13, 2017.
Allen continued to deny his involvement at that point in the interview.
Holeman admitted he lied to Allen when he talked about the death penalty and how it was still on the line.
He said Allen replied, "I'm not going to tell you something I didn't do."
"I didn't do it."
Holeman said throughout the session, Allen continued to deny any involvement in the murders of the girls or to even knowing them.
Holeman testified Allen denied his involvement 20 to 25 times.
At one point Holeman said Allen stated, "I don't care what you do to me. I am not going to tell you I did something I didn't do."
Allen got angry during the interview and — according to Holeman Allen started to cuss. Holeman admitted he matched Allen's tone.
The lead investigator said he asked a series of questions regarding Allen being on the trails on February 13, 2017, and what he was wearing that day.
He said Allen responded, "I already told you I was out there. I already told you what I was wearing."
Holeman told Allen during the interview he believed Allen was a good man. He says Allen responded, "What kind of good person would kill two girls?"
After the interview, Holeman testified Allen said, "Take all your evidence and just arrest me."
During cross-examination, defense attorney Andrew Baldwin questioned the interrogation methods used by Holeman.
He asked Holeman why he told Allen, "Investigators want to lock you up and throw away the key."
Baldwin also asked why Holeman tried to make Allen confess by bringing up Allen's wife and daughter.
Baldwin asked why Holeman said, "You're going to drag your wife and daughter through this because you're too f***ing bullheaded to get out in front of it."
Holeman testified he was simply trying to elicit a response from Allen.
Still, Allen denied any involvement.
Deception from interviewees
Holeman testified to how he determines if someone is lying to him while being interviewed.
He said he has the experience, which helps, but he also has learned how to pick up on suspect's cues. Those include:
- body language
- eye contact (or lack of it when they look away)
- touching the face
- hand movements
Holeman testified Allen showed no major signs of deception, and those that were there were very subtle.
Missing interview tapes
During cross-examination, the defense questioned the constitutionality of the interview.
Defense attorney Andrew Baldwin asked why the beginning of Allen's interview, when Holeman claimed he read Allen his Miranda Rights, was not recorded.
He said there were, "technical difficulties," and that portion of the interview wasn't captured.
Holeman said another investigator stopped the interview when they realized the session was not being recorded.
They proceeded after they got it fixed.
Baldwin then suggested that was just one of many "missing" videotaped recordings of the Richard Allen case.
Multiple people involved?
Baldwin, during cross-examination, started asking about law enforcement's "theory" there was only one person involved in the murders of Abby and Libby.
Holeman said he believes "now" that Richard Allen is the only person responsible for the murders.
Baldwin pressed Holeman on that statement. Holeman continued, "I thought at one point in time, there might be more than one person involved. but the longer the time went on the less I thought that."
Holeman believes if more than one person had been involved, they would've talked by now.
He said in his experience, people usually talk and rat each other out.
Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland objected to the defense's efforts to lay a belief that more than one person was involved.
On re-direct, prosecutor McLeland asked Holeman if there was any evidence anyone else was at the end of the bridge in the "Bridge Guy video."
Holeman said, "No."
Holeman also said he believes it's "Bridge Guy's voice" heard in the video taken by Libby on her iPhone on February 13, 2017.
When defense attorney Baldwin had a chance, he asked Holeman if there was speculation in the early stages of the investigation that two people could've been at the end of the bridge.
Holeman said, "Yes, but there was no way to prove it."
Strand of hair in Abby's hand
Baldwin also spent time asking Holeman about the strand of hair found in Abby Williams' hand at the crime scene.
Previous testimony from experts during the trial said it was a hair from a woman, possibly a relative of Libby. Baldwin asked why investigators never tested DNA from Libby's family after they discovered that.
Holeman said, "We decided not to test family hair because of resources at the time, and we had no family female suspect."
Sticks on the girls
During cross-examination, Baldwin asked Holeman about the sticks found on Abby and Libby.
Holeman said he believes they were used to conceal/ camouflage the bodies or for an "undoing."
He also said he doesn't believe the bodies were positioned.
Mistakes in the investigation
Baldwin questioned Holeman about mistakes made in the case.
Under oath, Holeman admitted there have been mistakes made.
What's next?
We are expecting to hear from a DNA expert soon. Also, the defense said in court that the jury will be shown interviews Allen had with police.
Court will be recessed until Monday at 9:00 a.m. when the trial of Richard Allen resumes in the Carroll County Courthouse in Delphi, Indiana.
